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 Post subject: Help me decide 300 Whisper or 30-223/30 Apache/7.62x39USA
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:54 pm 
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I am going to get a switch barrel for my .223 Savage in a 30 caliber. It will be primarily for subsonic shooting. Then later on get an AR upper in the same 30 cal. I want them to be able to swap ammo.

Pics below by Kurtz from Quarterbore Net Forums

This link shows a 300 whisper, 7.62x39 Russian, 7.62x38USA, .223 Remington: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/photo ... 40-web.jpg

This link shows 300 whisper and a 7.62x39USA loaded with a Speer 125 gr TNT, and a .223 Rem: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/photo ... SA-web.jpg

300 whisper and a 7.62x39USA in a P-Mag: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/photo ... ag-web.jpg
Another Pmag with just the 7.62x39USA rounds loaded: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/photo ... ag-web.jpg

I am conflicted. I want to have the most flexibility with a 30 cal reduced capacity case for sub sonic shooting. I will not be shooting 220 SMK but probably at the most a 200 gr round nose. But mostly 175 SMK or 170 gr-200 cast bullets in the bolt gun.

In the AR I will be shooting sub sonic 175 SMKs but want to be able to get good velocity supersonic with 125 TNTs, 168 and 175 SMKs also.

I think the 7.62x39USA (30-223) will give me a larger case capacity while still small enough to shoot subsonic well.

I will get a 17" 1:8 twist PacNor threaded for my AAC Cyclone for the Savage. And have SSK build the upper for the AR platform. SSK makes the 6.5 MPC uppers (which I like MUCH more than the 6.8 Remington and the 6.5 Grendal) it's not all that much different from the the 30-223/7.62x39USA in concept.

I think our military should convert our M-4s to the 6.5 MPC ASAP and resolve the problems the short barrel caused. It's only a barrel and ammo change. No links to change for the SAW, or any firearm parts. It's one of the best solutions with the least cost.

But back to my decision... Should I just go standard 300 Whisper which is more focused on Subsonic or go with a slightly longer case and get more capacity for full power loadings. I don't think I loose much in the subsonic loadings.

The Cons

No factory brass, or brass made up by a small company or person.
No load data.
Slightly larger case so it MAY cause a wider velocity spread and be less accurate?

I am not sure which is harder to make brass for, the 300 whisper, or one of the longer .30-.223 variants.

RCBS makes dies for the 30-223. I am not sure about the 7.62x39USA I need to find out more about it. It may be the same as the 30-223

Pros

Better supersonic capacity. Less bullet jump when shooting light bullets. the 300 whisper is made to shoot mostly heavy bullets.

Any help would be appreciated.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:43 pm 
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Well it looks like this cartridge is designed to hold more powder than need to get a heavy 30 cal to 1050 fps - going over the information on it at
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showt ... 7.62x39USA

It appears he's using 1:12 twist barrel with 125 grain bullets up to 2600 fps in 20 inch rifle. I don't see any pictures or comments about using heavy bullets, you might want to be careful as part the the reason the 300 whisper was to grip the heavy bullet where it is full 30 cal diameter and have the rest of the nose stick out, but not be so long that you can't get it into an AR magazine.

The biggest problem with wildcat cartridges is all the work in making cases the good part of either is you can make them from 223 (if you can find any) the 300 Whisper can also be easily made from 221 fireball which lately is easier to find at local gunshops than 223 for me.

One other cartridge to consider is just the plain old 7.62x39 cartridge - if your doing a savage swap barrel it only takes another min to swap bolt heads and you can find supersonic ammo easily and even some sub-sonic available to order. It will also work in an AR platform (hardest part is reliable magazines but some new ones are now on the market or on your AR purchase there are now some to change out magazine wells to use AK mags and STEN or Grease gun etc. http://www.mgimilitary.com/Lower_Receiv ... _Wells.htm

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Artful,

Thanks for the reply..

I am not going to use a 1:12 twist but a 1:8. I want the upward velocity flexibility the slightly larger "USA" case will provide yet still filling the primary subsonic role.

I am not planning on shooting the extra heavy bullets, but what I stock for my 308. At 1:8 I may be able to over spin the 125 TNT with the 7.62x39USA, but not 130 gr and up. I currently get 2800-3000 FPS with the 125 TNT in a 1:11.25 w/o bullet breakup.

What turned me on to all of this whole idea was the SSK 6.5 MPC round. I think it is perfect in the AR15 platform. It is the "answer" If I had a person to handload for me for free I would absolutely own an upper in 6.5 MPC. I would prefer it to the .223 by a long shot (pun intentional) I don't, so I won't.

The 7.62x39USA is similar to the MPC except it is .30 instead of 6.5. Full power loadings would be very nice in the 125 gr loads (but the BC is nowhere near the 6.5)

I currently shoot the 6.5 in a 260 Rem. and have LOTS of bullets and considered using the MPC for a sub sonic platform getting a fast twist in 6.5 but the .30 is so much better in sub sonic I can't see getting the 6.5 MPC unless the military goes with it. But by that time I will be blind and Ar15s will be contraband.

I am trying to reduce the # of calibers I load for. The velocity the 7.62x39USA is getting is very respectable for the small amount of powder. It is VERY efficient. (this is why the 6.5 MPC is so much better than the 5.56 NATO. Combine the efficiency and the better BC an you have a major winner)

The 7.62x39USA = 2555 FPS with 125 gr bullets in the AR. It should also be an excellent case for subsonic loadings. I think it has a dual role with more weight on the supersonic side unlike the Whisper which favors the subsonic side of the equation with heavy .30 bullets.

Snip----
from Kurtz

went to the range to test a couple loads in the 16" and 20" 7.62x39USA


16" 1:8 Olmypic .078 gas port carbine length gas system, fire-formed brass...

125 TNT 22gr lil-gun = 2,540 fps
125 TNT 22gr H110 = 2,480 fps
125 TNT 22gr 296 = 2,475 fps


20" 1:12 Noveske .102 gas port rifle length gas system, fire-formed brass....

125 TNT 26.0gr 1680 = 2,606 fps


I think I've hit a stopping point with the 16" around 2500fps...my favorite loads have been with the 4227 and lil-gun around 2350 to 2450fps.....I can probably push it a little faster but I'm not sure if the additional velocity is worth the increased pressure (wear and tear on the rifle).....2350 to 2450 is comfortable to shoot....the additional power it takes to reach the 2500 to 2550 mark is pretty noticeable in the BOOM factor....

The 20" rifle handled the 125's at 2600fps great.....I think the 1680 really shines in the 20" barrel.....it's funny, in the 16" barrel a charge of 22.5gr of 4227 and 25.8gr of 1680 produced almost identical fps (around 2440fps) ....but out of the 20" with the same loads the 1680 was over 100fps faster....no pressure signs with the 26gr of 1680 and still have a little room in the case.....

kurtz

End Snip-----

Granted this is with a 1:12 the 1:8 would be slower as it would raise pressures.

It would be nice to get the advantages of the 300 whisper in the 200 gr an under weights and the advantages of the larger case of the "USA" when shooting supersonic.

I am NOT going to be shooting over 200 gr bullets. The whisper is made for the biggest .30 bullets. I will shoot primarily 168 SMK, 175 SMK, 170 gr round nose, and for super sonic in the AR the 125 TNT.

My concern with the 300 whisper chamber is it's made for VERY long bullets which I will NOT be shooting. The loads I will shoot will have to jump quite a way before entering the rifling. The 7.62x39USA does NOT have this long of a distance before the rifling and will be better suited for my lighter weight bullets I will be shooting.

Maybe I am fooling myself trying to get the best of both worlds. A .30 in the AR that shines with subsonic 175 SMKs as well as being able to push respectable supersonic loads.

I have 1000s of bullets in 168 and 175 and a fairly good amount of 125s Also a good pile of 30-30 bullets. 150 and 170s

Will the 300 Whisper feed with 125s in the AR? Will the 300 Whisper be accurate with 125s in the AR? I have a lot of questions to get answered before I can make the choice.

Luckily some people have done a lot of the work already. I just need to ask the right people and see what they think.

The 7.62x39 Russian with a 1:8 twist would work, but I want to use the .223 as a parent case.. I have over 5,000 empty Federal cases.

I do not own a AK or any firearm that shoots a 7.62x39 Rus.

If I am going to have to make cases and hand load why not go with a case that will meet my specific needs. The whisper may not be the best solution for me. It may and I just don't know it. :-)

As of now I feel the 7.62x39USA may be a better choice than the 300 Whisper, but practicality may push me to just go with a standard 300 Whisper.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:04 pm 
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A couple of tidbits to help on your decision.

Sharp Shooters Supply has Savage barrels in 300 Whisper w/ 10 twist ready to install. With the bullet weights you have on hand, 10 twist is GTG.

http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/index.html

Making Whisper cases from .223 brass is a piece of cake with the right setup. Get a Dillon electric trimmer and a Whisper trim die for the Dillon from C-H Tool & Die. A single pass will both resize to 300 Whisper and trim to the correct length.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFkmpHdGm0U

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:57 pm 
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1:10 is a little to slow. I had looked at the site before... I don't want to worry about baffle strikes when shooting 200 gr bullets. I want a 1:8 and PacNor has them for my Savage.

But thanks for the link. I have not been there in a while. Looks like they have a new trigger.

Thanks.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:31 am 
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What I would do is try and see how much of the longest (175 SMK?) would be sticking out of the end of a case when gripped securley at the full caliber part then take the magazine length of a AR and subtract the bullet sticking out and see if that leaves enough for your desired case length.

We use 7.62x51 for subsonic so there is really no big deal in trying to use a bigger case, it might just be more entertaining in trying to get subsonic load worked out.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:54 pm 
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In the end it will probably only be 100-150 FPS more for the supersonic loads using the "USA" brass instead of the Whisper . For the amount of BS to work it all out, the custom reamers, dies, load data, etc it may not be worth it.

I do think it is a better solution in that you have more upward velocity flexibility while retaining good subsonic consistency.

I am probably better off sticking with the Whisper. If I shot a lot it would be different.

I have to admit the 6.5 MPC in the AR really has me hooked.

The military should start NOW getting ammo developed and barrels ordered. We will be needing them in Somali.... Not a lot of meat on the pirates. The 6.5 will sure help. Looks like "Saddle up" time.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:33 am 
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Go Whisper for all the reasons you stated above.

I have wasted too much time and money with the 30BR going subsonic - notwithstanding how "fun" it has been experimenting - but supersonic it is fabulous due to its flexibility. I have 185 grain Lapuas performing very well at 300 and couldn't be more pleased with the results against "normal" cartridges.


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 Post subject: Finalizing plans
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:55 pm 
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I settled in on a 300 Whisper. If I want supersonic I have my 260 or 308 SO this will be my subsonic rifle. I may add a contender barrel since my 357 max barrels were so inaccurate at subsonic speeds. (I still don't understand that)

I talked to Penny at PacNor... 17" SS Supermatch 1:8 poly threaded 5/8x24 = $455 & 10 weeks

SSK whisper dies $68 (I will back order a reading neck sizing die), Sharpshooter supply Barrel nut wrench $41, 200 rounds empty brass from SSK $96

$660 and I am good to go.

Any opinions/opinions on dies?

I will only be shooting from this rifle so I plan on only neck sizing after the initial firings. Any other option besides the back ordered Redding neck sizing die? What is the standard size for the die bushing? (I usually load a round with the brass I have and measure, then order the bushings accordingly.)

Do I need a go/no gauge or can I mount the barrel using a dummy round? If so where would I get the go/no go gauges for the 300 Whisper? Brownells did not have a 300 whisper .. SSK? Savage Shooters?

Flaws in my plans?

Any shorter lead time match 1:8 barrels?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:19 pm 
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I would definitely go with the Redding dies.

I would also mount the barrel with a dummy round, no need for gauges.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:22 pm 
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PTG Go gauge for 221 Fireball (same shoulder as 300-221)
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... mid=223971

You can probably use tape on the bottom of the Go gauge to be a no-go gauge. Or here is the No-Go gauge from PTG.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=255539

Or...if it is a one-time barrel change you can probably rent the go and no-go gauges from various places. I use headspace gauges for a switch barrel rifle but if you rented them, you could etch a mark on the bottom of the receiver and on the barrels when they are headspaced correctly. Then in the future you could line up the marks when you switched barrels.


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